An Eye For An Eye

cwt edt

An Iranian man convicted of blinding another in the ever popular acid throwing olympics has had his eyes gouged out in Iran. Considering all the other punishments Iran has lined up for transgressors I was quite surprised to hear that this was a first. Apparently many doctors had refused to do it on previous occasions. The method used is to put the person to sleep and jimmy out the eyeball.

In Iranian (sharia) law the victim has the final say in whether the criminal should be punished and they can also to decide to yankย  each eyeball out in stages as in this case, the victim decided at the last minute to give the villain 6 more months with the remaining right eye to think over the error of his ways and plead for clemency.

In another case the scheduled eye removal was postponed by the victim who wanted ‘the pleasure’ of carrying out the job with his own two hands.

Ameneh Bahrami (pic) on the other hand received international praise when she chose to pardon her attacker, which stopped the eye removal only hours before it was to be carried out also with a face full of acid.

acidvictim

What say you??!!

An eye for an eye is condoned in parts of the bible – as is forgiveness, so is it something you can be down with?

What if it were your daughter, or mother or son who ended up disabled for life and you had the chance to inflict the same degree of pain on the perp, would you do it?

What if the perp was a grinning psychopath with zero remorse for what he did and was sentenced to live in the warmth and protection of the system with a full belly, chrissie presents, no bills to worry about and perks: TV, computer, letters, a cushy prison job so he can buy those cigs and choc bars whilst you paid tax to help him live this way? (I’m twisting the knife here!)

Could you forgive or would you be down for a little tit for tat?

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120 comments

      1. If we go too fast our chances of mistakes are increased.
        Some comfortable at 30MPH others 45MPH….without laws to control “speed” we all
        become “intoxicated” with it….”speed” the opi of abusers.

        Que sera

  1. This is very interesting. Just FYI, the “eye for an eye” law actually originated in the Code of Hammurabi–not the Bible. It was widely accepted in Mesopotamia and carried over into other cultures that developed in the Tigris/Euphrates river valley. I would assume it’s inclusion in the Old Testament was a part of relating to the accepted norms of society in that region (Abraham was a Mesopotamian from Ur). Jesus came around was able to flip that law on its head in a world where Greek philosophy and the Pax Romana made a message of grace, love, and forgiveness more relate-able. Your conundrums are an enjoyable read. Cheers!

    1. You are welcome! Interesting. I expect that a lot of people who read the bible and take it at face value would be quite surprised at how some very key pieces of it have been reappropriated and reproduced from earlier times.

      1. Ha ha…๐Ÿ˜€ started typing then was distracted….sorry !
        Like your last suggestion……religion the opi of the church !๐Ÿ˜ˆ

        Love the opi of humans…..wish !๐Ÿ˜‡

        Is love less painful than hate ?
        Start of another discussion.
        Hate thy friend love thine enemy.๐Ÿ˜ˆtrying to blow your physce.

  2. Is societies more “violent” today than before…..yes.
    Is societies less barbaric today than before……again yes.

    Barbarism does exist today but less acceptable.
    Violence does exist today but more acceptable.
    Both are crimes against humanity but it is human to err…….eye for eye tit for tat all human ways
    to seek revenge……is it no better to forgive but not forget.
    Laws are not “static” written in stone….changing them is the responsibility of our elected
    leaders in our modern democracies. Hopefully for better ones.
    Anarchy the alternative.

    In political jargon ,”liberalism”.

    Que sera

      1. If u r Canadian …..born bred or doctrinated ?
        Am curious…….
        Am Guyanese first….born and bred with internationalist outlook….with strong political convictions.
        Enjoy your spin…..which does have a distinct feminist flavour.

        Enjoy feminism but not feminists or their counterpart chauvinistic males but certainly not gay.
        U my fatal attraction
        Hugsxx๐Ÿ˜‡ in day ๐Ÿ˜ˆ after dark.๐Ÿ˜€

      2. What spin? I’m lost. What are you referring to?
        Feminism? What the …huh?!!
        Lol. I do enjoy your posts DC. Usually I understand about 30% of them, but you have outshone yourself today! ๐Ÿ™‚

  3. I have to say it’s tit for tat for me. If you don’t like violence then don’t start it. The calls for human rights are so tipped in the criminals favour these days its quite disgusting.

  4. I read this a few times and have been thinking about it lots before trying to give my two cents. I haven’t read everyone else’s comments either. BUT… Everything in me says to forgive because I have been forgiven. In God’s eyes, sin is sin and it doesn’t matter how big or small WE think it is. He forgave us anyway. Therefore, who am I not to forgive.

    Now, that being said, having never been in a situation where I would have to look past what has been done and simply forgive, I honestly do not know what I would do, or say. I read stories of bad things happening and I think “I’d kill ’em if they ever did that to my kids” or “he should be locked up and never see the light of day again”. I have even said “this is a good reason we should bring the death penalty back!” (Harsh I know because I know killing the person won’t fix anything they have done) So until I have been in these situations (And I PRAY I NEVER AM!) I can’t say either way. But I know in my heart that because I have been forgiven, I too am called to forgive… can I do it? I honestly don’t know.

    1. It’s very easy isn’t it to be an armchair executioner and I’m pretyy sure a lot of us have muttered about bringing back the death penalty, but in reality…who knows? Like you say, pray that we never have to be in that position.

  5. hmmm, how I love your subject matter Ed. Seriously, it gets me salivating…

    OK, Those bastards, like pedaphiles, get away with murder, acid throwing, rape, brutally beating their women ad nauseum, and the state does nothing about it. This is not racist, it’s about a sick, stinking, violent culture, that feels NO remorse about anything they do.

    Women are treated like shit. Actually dog shit. So, methinks, oh yes, an eye for an eye, but I’d take it further………..

    Not only would I gauge the bastards eyes out, I’d follow that with a nice can of acid on his genitals! Sounds good to me. One less pig in the world….whose kept alive in constant suffering. Maybe he’ll turn to meditating instead of defacing innocent women….

      1. Oh my word yes! Pigs don’t behave this way do they? ooops. Sorry for that faux par. Lets just say he’s a never cleaned asshole. Even that’s too good for him.Oh to hell with it. dish out the punishment and laugh. When the genitals get a dose of acid, the bum with turn in on itself, and save us the worry of having to find sufficient adjectives as to what to do with this mean, ego tistical, shit for brains manic…..

  6. My sister’s favourite quote is… to understand everything, is to forgive everything.
    As usual. ..you are playing the game you love playing. ..and my answer is… it depends. ..depends whether I understand…. in some cases. ..I might feel magnanimous and decide to forgive. ..in other csses…I might want to take out the eyes with my own hand.. who knows? Even the most passive person can turn into an revenge seeking animal. ..given the right motivation!
    Reminds me of the scene from Godfather. ..where the father asks vito corleone to kill the guys who had raped his daughter. ..and truth…I am told, is stranger than fiction. What do you say?

    1. What game?! *now where’s the innocent face smiley?*

      Who was that? One of the Belucci’s? Contucci’s? Scatucci’s? The Garbonie Brothers? Lol. I can’ t remember, what did Corleone say?

      1. Hahaha..I just took out the book..It was Amerigo Bonasera( the guy who had the funeral parlour)…and his daughter was beaten up when she resisted. Corleone replied…but, your daughter is alive, so that’s more than an eye you ask for….or something to that effect!
        BTW…there is something wrong with WordPress notifications…I didnt get an alert when you replied..and I was wondering…luckily i checked the post… ๐Ÿ˜€

      2. Someone’s head will roll at WordPress!!!!!!!
        Those little glitchy things are always happening here. I know for a fact that folks don’t get all my messages and posts, (sigh) and we pay so highly for this service…oh, wait! ๐Ÿ™‚

  7. In a lot of contexts it isn’t a practical solution. Take hit and run for a hit and run, for example, or what about rape for a rape, not to mention stab your granny for stab my granny?

    In any event, I think the victim should not be involved in the punishment. On of your repliers mentions that forgiveness is for your own sake, so as not to live in bitterness and the spirit of vengeance. The law should deal with it I think.

    1. Oh I don’t know, some of the laws in certain countries are so ridonculous I could see them re-enacting hit and run and rape, they might relent on stab your granny, but frankly they already do worse!
      I hear you with the let the law deal with it for the reasons stated, but I also think some people DO actually relax more if they feel they have avenged a loved one…erm…Batman being one! ๐Ÿ˜€

  8. Still not really sure that I’m welcome here. To answer the original question – I’m not into forgiveness necessarily, but I am not going to turn into the kind of person who can torture another, no matter how deserving. Kill the perp, sure, but make it clean. I will not allow myself to become that sort of person. It’s not about the perp, it’s about me. If one of my children is the victim? Sure, kill him – don’t let him (I’m using ‘him’ for convenience, not ignoring the perp might be a ‘her’) do it to another. There is no punishment severe enough that *I* can dish out. I still have to live with myself afterward.

      1. Shabbot, with various spellings, is the sabbath. ‘Shabbot,’ is the closest I can come to the proper pronunciation in Hebrew for the day of rest. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  9. My grandmother taught me philosophy of life…..she lived with us siblings…she was illiterate in English but not in putagee…! She was born in Madeira smuggled aboard sailing ship at 16 by a
    sailor my grandfather. Jumped ship in BG (British Guiana) had 14 children whose defendants now live mostly in English speaking countries.
    My parents generation are all in the “after life” if it exists……guess cannot wait to meet them all
    some for the first time….but not in hurry…..only 71 fighting fit and fiddling !๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    THE LAW IS AN ASS unless it is enforced or enforceable.
    Those who believe in democracy can choose where to live/move to…..world much more mobile.
    QQ boat people ! Unfortunately most never make it…..that’s life !๐Ÿ˜ฌ

  10. Bible gospels et al…..were probably written by “entertainers” “story tellers”…..
    Today there are a lot more ” literate” folks about who have a much more realistic/vivid imagination…..who write more believable stories.
    That’s why I prefer written disagreements than social agreements.
    Class conscientious ness is a prejudice we must live with……our leaders and politicians
    can change that…..am more political than economic with the truth !
    Truth to power ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    Funny how people prefer “gossip” to religious/political/economic discussions……much more entertaining my guess…..
    Que sera

      1. Same question again…same answer.
        No certainly not.๐Ÿ˜ฌ๐Ÿ˜ฌ๐Ÿ˜ฌ
        Class conscientiousness is similar to “superiority” complexities.
        Am brighter more clever wiser than you syndrome……
        Professor v student relationships of influence……

        Today classrooms have the teacher sitting in middle of class…..not at blackboard “dictating”
        Not one of them….one of us new concept in learning.

  11. I usually avoid this topic…I’m not “religious” and I hate drama. But Im a researcher at heart so here goes…

    This quote is taken WAY out of context…

    Mathew 5:38

    You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: โ€˜An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.โ€™p 39But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,q carry it two miles. 42Give to those who ask, and donโ€™t turn away from those who want to borrow.
    http://biblehub.com/nlt/matthew/5.htm

    Seems to me the speaker (Jesus) is saying quite the opposite – he’s encouraging diplomacy and passive resistance, not violence and revenge
    If someone takes another’s eye, the victim is not to punish his attacker. I agree that it’s a strange response, but it’s pretty clear that he’s saying two gouged eyes don’t make a right.
    .
    It seems the powers that be in Iran have taken something somewhat relevant and twisted it for their own purposes.

    IMO, anyway. Great post, though. Cheers!

    1. See now that is what is for some so good and for others so bad about the bible, you can find a passage to suit just about any way of thinking. A lot of the time you don’t even have to twist it to suit your own agenda because within it’s own pages it is already contradictory.
      Mathew says ‘you have heard the law an eye for an eye…’ Well guess where we heard it? The bible.
      I know why you avoid this topic! Lol! But that’s also why it can be fun!

      1. Oh I know…ppl love the bible for manipulation. That movie with Denzel Washington, The Book of Eli, had a good quote about why political powers love religion but I can’t find it on the Google…anyway yeah. It’s a thing for sure. Although, I’ve known people that did the same word manipulation with Alice in Wonderland so…meh. People do what they do. Oh and that Mathew in my first reply is the chapter of the bible that quote is found in. I site things…it’s the lawyer in me. Lol. I do avoid this topic…I have enough stress in my life now. But I used to be a damn good troll ๐Ÿ˜œ (;

      2. Ha! Love a good troll, they are thin on the ground. Few troll with finesse these days! ๐Ÿ™‚
        If you remember that political powers quote or can paraphrase I’d love to hear it.

      3. You should really see the movie just cuz it’s a good one but:

        Carnegie: To his men “Put a crew together, we’re going after ’em.”
        Redridge: For a fuckin’ book?
        Carnegie: IT’S NOT A FUCKIN’ BOOK! IT’S A WEAPON. A weapon aimed right at the hearts and minds of the weak and the desperate. It will give us control of them. If we want to rule more than one small, fuckin’ town, we have to have it. People will come from all over, they’ll do exactly what I tell ’em if the words are from the book. It’s happened before and it’ll happen again. All we need is that book.

        [repeated line] Read it!
        I need that book. I want that book!
        [about the Bible] It’s a weapon! A weapon aimed right at the hearts and minds of the weak and the desperate.

        So yeah. That’s about the gist of it.

      4. Spot on! And will look out for this movie. I’m usually there with some cookies if Mr Washington is in a movie although The Equalizer – what was that all about!!??
        Don’t know if you saw it. A movie where there was no tension because the protagonist (Washington) could not lose. His very aura seem to repel bullets and any hint of danger.
        In any case yes, spot on that quote.

      5. Haha no but I’ll look for it! I like him too. That one where he was a drunken pilot freaked me out but yeah for the most part you can’t lose with Denzel!

    2. yes, Jesus was proclaiming a change – but the old version is what was Hebrew law, Moses’ law – and it’s still mostly the way we do it, more so than forgiveness. When push comes to shove, we’re all still closer to the OT version. Jesus’ change hasn’t really taken . . .

  12. Tough question there. I’d like to say I’d be the better person and forgive but I dunno. Someone hurts someone I care about and the claws come out, especially if it was for something so horrific like an acid attack. I’m originally from the Boston area and when Marathon bomber recently got the death penalty I cheered so I guess there’s your answer. Although it will take years and years to crawl through the system so it’s likely he will die of old age first.

      1. I know it’s ridiculous and to add insult to injury it also drains a huge amount of tax dollars keeping these defeated alive for the next 50 years…

  13. UK s jail policy has moved on….they receive “on the job training” and phased back into work
    after freedom…some jails even makes a”profit” from inmates free labour…..ยฃ6.30 per hour.
    Some argue its not a liveable wage….specially those living in cities.
    We also have some “fiddling expenses” MPs doing time.
    Which country on the planet jails their elected representatives for “stealing” public funds?

    Rest my case……jail curtails “freedom”
    Today most magistrates will sentence criminals of misdeminas (petty crimes) to “community service”……. Cleaning public streets or toilets.

    Huminiliation is sometimes better than jailing.
    In olden times your hands ad heads were put in the stock and you were pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes in your village.
    Time and punishment HSS “evolved”…..

  14. I might be able to do it if I were disfigured in that way but at the end of the day, I’d still be disfigured and probably ashamed for doing the same to another. I’m glad I live in an area that doesn’t allow people to do this to one another. What a horrific news story.

  15. you know “cushy prisons” only exist in my dreams, right? Anybody who wants in is either starving, trying to prove something about their toughness, start a career there at Crime U., or their life outside of prison was already so bad that what’s the difference.

    1. But still to THEM it’s ‘cushy.’ If I were cold, homeless and hungry, a prison where I’m warm, fed and all the red tape, fines for breathing and paperwork that blights most civilians lives is life is taken care of…well where do I sign? We could even continue our child cruelty debates via the prison computers. What’s not to love!!!?? ๐Ÿ™‚

  16. I think forgiveness is a gift to yourself, not just the person you forgive. I’m thankful I live in a country which doesn’t have the death penalty and which certainly wouldn’t remove a persons eyes.

    For those people who will undoubtedly say that you need to be in a situation to really know what you would do, I say that I have been a victim of violent crime (in my case rape) and I have forgiven the person who did the crime. I think I’m happier and healthier for having done so.

  17. No! I could not be responsible for the injury of someone else. I don’t care what kind of a lunatic they are. It will never undo the injury or wound I or my family suffered, it would only add to the damage that has been done emotionally.

  18. As Tevye in “Fiddler on the Roof” wisely responded to a villager calling for “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” … “Very good. That way the whole world will be blind and toothless.”

    Revenge gets us nowhere.

  19. Oh wonderful! A question I ask myself very often (after watching news about all those sickos)… I don’t know… I like to think that I would not go down that track but frankly… I might just as well want to hurt someone that inflicted pain to my children…

    1. Hey Momma, maybe it’s a fluid answer that changes with our experience and moods. I certainly think mine does. Plus hurt my posse?…Gee, I don’t know if there’s a law on earth…

      1. Maybe… I guess it’s also relevant to the case. If something would happen to me I would probably just play nice. But if something would have been done to my kids it would be a totally other story. And then it’s such a thing with the law. As clear as it might seem sometimes there is always a gap somewhere to be found by a clever lawyer and that’s the thing that bothers me the most. And that would definitely be a trigger for me too… I’m just talking about your post with my husband. Very thought provoking…

      2. There is something slightly sordid about the way the law works with lawyers on each side battling to win the big cases either for money or ego and truth is way down the list. OJ Simpson anyone?
        I have no solutions for a better way however.

  20. First answer Is yes but that would be anyone’s reaction. In the end I don’t think I would do it and I think the sweeter revenge is that he knows the taste of forgiveness something he might not even fathom.

    That answer sounded far more poetic than I though.

    1. Hmm…maybe for some forgiveness would eventually get to them, but there are people who have committed crimes just to get INTO jail because they are told it’s so cushy (UK) I can’t see them particularly bothered. And yes it was rather poetic! ๐Ÿ™‚

  21. There is a lot of misinterpretation of the Biblical “eye for an eye” statement. It was not intended as a prescription for punishment. Rather it was to set limits on vengeance and retribution, to prevent, for example, a death penalty for shoplifting. Western jurisprudence interprets it as “the punishment should fit the crime.” I won’t suggest Sharia Law is stuck in the seventh century, because if I did someone would probably make it his mission to hunt me down and kill me for having an opinion.

    1. I’m sure you’re right about those corporal penalties being intended as the upper limit – but it’s still a prescription for punishment, clearly.

  22. if the person assesses as dangerous and they have been convicted, I’d lock them up – but the prison needs to be nicer, like a Hyatt with better security and HBO.
    These particular crimes are crimes of punishment, punishment being the motive – and therefore the idea that this criminal needs to lose, not to have it reinforced for him. So just lock him up and talk at him incessantly about what a better world looks like, natter at him until he’s either cured or he’s old enough that he no longer has the energy for assailing people.

    ๐Ÿ˜‰

      1. I’m referring to the victim’s family who are always left behind to pick up the pieces, emotionally, financially, psychologically while we’re spending time and tax payer money soft talking to criminals until, according to you, they have no energy left.

      2. but why do we hate the bad guys’ violence and love and support the good guys’ violence? That is just tribal, no focus on the violence itself whatsoever! Clearly, that strategy is not ending violence in the world. Violence is on the wane in the long term (according to Steven Pinker) – but that is due to the very humanism, the very lessening of brutality generally that positions like yours here would appear to oppose . . .

        I’m sure that Law and Order speech like this is misguided, that it panders to the worst parts of the victims’ families, and perhaps inadvertently, supports the very sort of violence that offended us all in the first place. Now instead of dealing with one violent criminal, we’ve made violent criminals of ourselves as well. Must I say it? Violence breeds violence. Any creep who would take that sort of action with the acid was no doubt soul-murdered himself, and doing it to him again won’t cure him, it will only make us criminals too.

      3. Lol…here we go! ๐Ÿ™‚

        There’s 2 arguments or points here that you are moulding into 1.

        YOU talked about how we should spend lots of resources talking to the crim and sorting him out. I simply inquired how come the crim gets all the attention and the innocent victim and / or their families often get zilch after-care. ‘Go on, off you go Mr or Mrs Victim go and get crazy all by yourself coping with the aftermath, there’s no funds to help you because we’re busy allocating it to your son’s murderer!’

        The SECOND argument that you are determined to shove into the first one is how are we any better if we commit the same crime as the crim?

        Well, here’s an argument I’m going to put out there. Firstly, it is not the violence per se that offends me personally as you have said. It is the criminal who initiates the crime against an innocent party that I find offensive. It is not the gun I find offensive, it is the person who pulls the trigger for the wrong reason that I find offensive.

        I’m merely being realistic about violence and in my utopia the victim’s care and desires, whatever that may be, would outweigh the crims. Punishing a crim is not predicated on ending world violence, (good luck with that btw) or even curing the crim, it’s simply meant to punish a crim. How about we let the crim prove that he is repentant and wants to give back for his sins before we all rush to hand him/her every opportunity going?

        It is you and certain others in society that suggest that any violence is unacceptable. And yet violence has been an intrinsic part of why we are here in the first place. If your country were not so violent you would not be in the economic position you are today…I include the UK and other countries in that also.
        So how far do your principles against violence stretch then? Are you prepared to down tools and not take part in the profits of that violence enjoyed by your society? Or maybe some versions of violence are indeed acceptable?
        You eat meat? Is the violence needed to kill an innocent animal acceptable? I could go on? What arbitrary levels of violence are you prepared to stop at? Just criminals? Just US citizens? Just humans?

        Violence exists, it underpins every society, but you are saying all that is fine just not against those poor undeserving crims eh? So we don’t become the bad guys like them eh?
        When were we really the good guys when we turn a convenient blind eye to so much violence against other people and animals when it suits our comfortable lives.

        Go for it …. ๐Ÿ˜€

        PS and how does one actually measure the waning of violence? Police reports that come with a history of being doctored to suit certain agendas? Indeed how do you measure all the violence that isn’t even reported? Rapes, domestic violence, religious and cultural violence?
        There has been millenia of violence from Biblical times and before and suddenly it’s on the wane in our time? Why don’t I believe that?

        Now go for it …. ๐Ÿ˜€

      4. “The Angel of our Better Nature,” I think, a Steven Pinker book I have not yet read, but he’s reputable enough. Put it this way: humanism is on a slow rise, over all of history, and unless you contest that, or blame humanism for creating MORE violence . . .

        victims get attention, at least they do here, Victim Services, help, counselling – does nothing but revenge count as attention? OK, a few points of yours:

        One:

        “Firstly, it is not the violence per se that offends me personally as you have said. It is the criminal who initiates the crime against an innocent party that I find offensive. It is not the gun I find offensive, it is the person who pulls the trigger for the wrong reason that I find offensive.”

        – that’s what I said, thanks for the confirmation: it’s about who is doing the crime, not the crime. We’re OK with murdering HIM (the original bad guy), which means we’re OK with murder, which means only HE isn’t allowed to do it, yes, it’s about people, dominant and sub-groups.

        Two:

        “Punishing a crim is not predicated on ending world violence . . . ”

        – so because that isn’t the goal, it doesn’t matter if it does the exact opposite? That’s not the goal of many things, crime most notably, so it doesn’t matter what damage happens from our actions, as long as we SAY we weren’t trying to help? WTF?

        Three:

        all that talk about violence – it’s not my focus. I’m anti-punishment. I don’t think all violence is evil, almost half of it is probably defensive – but none of the punitive violence is. If people wanna fight, fine, let ’em fight, consenting adults and all. What I am opposed to is ritualized violence practiced on children and criminals by the folks who are supposed to be the good ones. What hope for the world if the GOOD folks love violence?
        And it was one thing, I opposed it thinking that normal folks thought they were fixing something – but you’re not even pretending? You would punish and not even care if it helps? All your concern is for the brief period these folks get locked up, no long-term thoughts about it?

      5. Does nothing but revenge count as attention?

        Eh? NO. You are mixing the 2 arguments again. Attention in my books would be psychological help or counselling for the victim. If the budget allocated for these services is tight, give it to the victim, not the crim. I accept that the US system may be different.

        โ€œFirstly, it is not the violence per se that offends me personally as you have said. It is the criminal who initiates the crime against an innocent party that I find offensive. It is not the gun I find offensive, it is the person who pulls the trigger for the wrong reason that I find offensive.โ€
        โ€“ thatโ€™s what I said, thanks for the confirmation: itโ€™s about who is doing the crime, not the crime. Weโ€™re OK with murdering HIM (the original bad guy), which means weโ€™re OK with murder, which means only HE isnโ€™t allowed to do it, yes, itโ€™s about people, dominant and sub-groups.

        Lol that is the equivalent of me saying the sky is blue and you say ‘Thank you we both agree the sky is red.’

        I said very clearly that the person who INITIATES the crime against the INNOCENT party is offensive. There would be no need to be discussing his possible punishment if the crim did not INITIATE the crime in the first place. I did not say anything in such general terms that ‘itโ€™s about who is doing the crime’ who is offensive. I was very clear about the difference.

        Punishing a crim is not predicated on ending world violence . . . โ€
        โ€“ so because that isnโ€™t the goal, it doesnโ€™t matter if it does the exact opposite? Thatโ€™s not the goal of many things, crime most notably, so it doesnโ€™t matter what damage happens from our actions, as long as we SAY we werenโ€™t trying to help? WTF?

        Are you suggesting that if we remove punishment of criminals that would be the end of crime and violence. WTF x2?
        Since that is clearly never going to happen we can discuss punishment on it’s own terms without tying a load of hoopla that won’t make any reasonable jot of difference to it. Therefore one can punish the existing criminal for his existing crimes which does not in any way preclude us from looking into more competent ways of discouraging newer violence.

        What hope for the world if the GOOD folks love violence?

        Wow that’s some leap! Punishing someone does not automatically equate to ‘Hey folks! I love violence!’

        You would punish and not even care if it helps?

        No I’m one of those people happy to accept that not everyone has to think, believe and behave like me or it makes them wrong. Whilst there are many who say they would forgive someone who perpetrated a crime against them and they have said so on this very debate, there are also those who do actually feel some weight off their shoulders knowing that the person who killed their loved one gets punished for it. Therefore clearly for them punishment indeed does help. And as I have said, my concern would be with the victim’s needs first not the criminals. That would be my motivation, not whether I personally care or not.

      6. Lol…Never mind corrections, I’m still deciding whether to attack your main comment now or with a cup of tea later!…I think cup of tea later…I’m sure I pushed all the buttons with my own comment. Oh Lord, I’m in trouble! ๐Ÿ˜€

      7. First, just a technicality – but I’m Canadian/ I know, same thing.

        never said you said anything about sub-groups, I’m very much aware that it was me who said that. If we add up all the violent crime in the world and subtract only the INITIAL ones, there would still be much violent crime in the world – including ours, if we’re taking and eye for an eye and a life for a life.

        ” Therefore one can punish the existing criminal for his existing crimes which does not in any way preclude us from looking into more competent ways of discouraging newer violence.”

        that means finding ways to discourage it while we’re still creating it with our righteous violence, kind of working against ourselves. Abuse CAUSES bad behaviour, crime and violence, and punishment is abuse, just abuse with a better intention. Tell me: in what other situation in life can we do the very same things and have opposite results only because we INTEND different results?

        Punishment CAUSES crime, misbehaviour and violence, and advocating for it is advocating for no change, no improvement.

        I know that’s not the normal narrative, but as in most things, if the normal solution worked, the problem would be solved, and it’s not.

        We see some sort of a line drawn where things are legal or not, it’s punishment or it’s abuse – but the lines don’t mean anything. There’s a scientific principle at work – harm harms us, it doesn’t enhance us – and if that’s what’s happening, if we are feeling violence, disregard, betrayal, we will be hurt, regardless that the person doing all that to us is allowed to, regardless that they hope we won’t.

        The legal line, the ‘socially accepted’ line, these are not real things and their apparent difference is meaningless, psychologically.

      8. no worries, and no obligation. I am having some fun too, though! Often I can’t get an argument if I paid for it, and you’re taking a stance. Many folks can’t seem to do that.

      9. Actually I’m not. I’m being devil’s advocate in this case. I have said in one of my replies that I waver between the 2 camps because if I was given the option of any eye for an eye, something so life-changing would depend on so many variables and also how I am feeling at any one point. From your argument I could tell that you had assumed that I had taken a particular stance and I didn’t correct you. Where’s the fun in that!

      10. ‘Punishment CAUSES crime, misbehaviour and violence’ – alright Slugger I’m done for this session. I’ll see you for the next. ๐Ÿ™‚ You make a lot of bold ass statements like the one I highlighted above. Care to provide the proof?

        And with your revelation should I be saying ‘ey’ after every sentence? So many questions!

      11. proof is hard to come by. Ever seen proof provided that punishment improves behaviour? – not a challenge. If you have anything, though, I’d love to read it!

      12. No. But how can I be swayed by a mere opinion?
        Plus… I never put forward the argument that punishment improves behaviour. I merely stated that it helps those who need retribution. You dear sir are the one who keeps loading punishment with all these other jobs it has to perform.

      13. I know thatโ€™s not the normal narrative, but as in most things, if the normal solution worked, the problem would be solved, and itโ€™s not.

        – troubleshooting 101

      14. OK, ADOPTING a stance. Still a step up from some folks whose position doesn’t quite qualify as a stance at all. Oh! – we’re done? OK, next time . . . (but I’ll warn you, you’ve inspired my next post . . . )

      15. Hah! Have at it sir! Drop me a note and I’ll be there with the boxing gloves and someone who does that water thingy in the ring.
        And please make it a length I don’t have to book a vacation to read! ๐Ÿ˜€

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